Live at Trinity Rubgy Club (Men's Mental Health, Dating Problems, Loneliness, Dealing with Conflict)

This week's episode is a live Q & A recorded at Trinity Rugby Club in South London. Dr. Alex is interviewed by Andrew Edwards the Director of Rugby at the club and they discuss various topics such as:

- Modern problems men face
- Difficulties with dating and relationships
- Preventing anxiety and depression
- Making friends with failure
- The value of introspection
- The importance of facing conflict directly
- Using aggression in a healthy way

And much more. Dr. Alex Curmi is a consultant psychiatrist and a UKCP registered psychotherapist in-training.

If you would like to invite Alex to speak at your organisation please email thinkingmindpodcast@gmail.com with "Speaking Enquiry" in the subject line. 

If you would like to enquire about an online psychotherapy appointment with Dr. Alex, you can email - alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com.

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Trinity RFC are a rugby club working hard to promote a positive culture in sport and improve player welfare. You can find out more about Trinity here: https://trinityrfc.com/

Transcript

Male Mental Health Full Q&A

Alex, thank you so much for joining us at Trinity Rugby Club this evening. We're going to start off with a bit of an introduction about your background in mental health. You're obviously a mental health professional, but if you want to tell us a little bit more about the work that you do with people.

Yeah. Thank you guys for the invitation. It's nice to be here. So I kind of have three jobs, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend by the way, I'd stick with one job if you can manage it, but I have three. I'm a psychiatrist, which means I'm a medical doctor. I specialize in mental illness, like mental health conditions, diagnosing them, treating them.

And I'm also training as a psychotherapist. So that's like sitting down with people one on one once a week, typically helping them to work through different problems that they have, maybe past traumas, things like that, but also just trying to help them get better. a better quality of life in whatever way you can think of.

And then I also make a podcast once a week about all of those things. And also there's an aspect of [00:01:00] what I call self development, which is not necessarily with a therapist, but how do you get the things that you want in your life? And that could be having a job that you like, that you enjoy, making the money that you want to make, getting the kinds of good quality relationships you want to get, you know, romantic relationships, but also.

Good quality friendships. stuff that makes life meaningful. And so my job rests on those three things and how they interlock with each other. And of course how they help people with their mental health and their wellbeing in general. So that's a summary of what I do. Okay, sounds pretty busy.

Yeah, it's a bit. I sometimes I sleep On mental health male mental health specifically. Why do you feel it's important that we are differentiating? We've labeled tonight a male mental health talk why do you feel it's important that we differentiate between male mental health and a more generalized mental health of Female and males what specifically about male mental health is important at the minute?[00:02:00] 

Yeah, so I would say both men and women are facing quite a lot of problems with their mental health, but there are different kinds of problems. One issue is that I think in many ways we've lost sight of the fact that men and women are on the same team, that we're supposed to be working together. A lot of the conversations in our culture are putting men against women and women against men.

But They have different sets of problems, you know, women very much are coming into their power at the moment and that actually does bring with it some specific problems which we could talk about. But men there's some problems that men have always had and there are some newer problems. I think men have always had what you could call the burden of performance.

Men are always judged by how they perform, by their status. by what they achieve in life. Men are kind of, in many ways, the more disposable gender. We send them off to war and we send them off to fight and to take a lot of physical risks. But there are some new [00:03:00] problems that men are facing, I think.

We live in a more isolated society for different reasons. And I think men are a bit less proactive in terms of making sure they are connected to people. Obviously a club like this is amazing cause it gives men a chance to meet each other and connect. But many men don't have a space like this, which is a shame.

And I think left to their own devices. Men are a bit, tend to get isolated a bit more, whereas women are a bit more proactive about maintaining relationships. There are economic problems in recent, the past 50 years. The labor force has increased substantially, and what that means is wages have gone down and inflation has increased, which means, you know, men are earning less money, but also the money that we earn is worth less.

And as I said before, We have the burden of performance. So, there's a way in which the way a man earns is tied to our self worth that perhaps I don't think the same is true for women. Dating and relationships are a bit of a catastrophe for a lot of [00:04:00] reasons. How many of you guys, how many of you guys are single?

And of the single guys, how many of you are on dating apps? Okay, so dating apps have been a huge problem because you know, when they came about, there was this idea that there were a technology that was going to allow everyone to find a perfect match. There was that idea but it didn't take into account any of the ways that men choose women or women choose men.

And as a result, there's a huge amount of dating inequality. Actually, what we find from statistics from dating apps. is that a small amount of men have all of the success. A huge proportion of women are fighting for the attention of that tiny proportion of men, which means they're unhappy because they're not getting the relationships that they want.

And then a huge amount of men are left out entirely. Sometimes when people talk about dating, it's seen as something superficial. But this has a huge impact on [00:05:00] our society like birth rates are down in the West in general and in the UK men are in Relationships less often men are having less sex and obviously this is a problem for men and women so dating and relationships We live in a society that's increasingly artificial where we have technologies which can separate us because we can do Zoom meetings.

That means we can stay at home because we can get food delivered to our house. That means we can stay at home. So all these things that are keeping us away from each other work, even though we have more jobs than ever before, a lot of the jobs we have feel like they don't have a lot of meaning to a lot of people.

Like they're not having a huge impact. Our jobs are very abstract and very bureaucratic. We have to do a lot of interfacing with faceless corporations. So that's just a few. of the problems I think that men are facing at the moment. Yeah. And on just on that point of working from home, I don't know how many people in here work from home.[00:06:00] 

Yeah, so that's obviously increasing. So would you say working from home, which obviously since COVID, many more people do work from home. Have you seen an increase as a doctor in people with loneliness or or issues coming out of being a bit isolated from home? Loneliness has become such a big issue in the UK that in 2018, the government appointed a minister for loneliness.

So, you know, when the government makes a minister for something, it must be like kind of a problem. Yeah. It's definitely something I see in my clinical work as well, especially with some of my younger clients. There are some basics of how to socialize with others that they don't have or how to date or how to form a relationship.

It's a huge problem and it's something we're seeing, especially in the U. S., but I think it's a problem in the UK. Human beings, we're a social species. We thrive. on meeting other people, having close contact with other people, solving problems and [00:07:00] facing challenges with other people. That's why sports are so good, as we'll talk about later.

 We all learned during lockdown, you know, when we're separated from each other, we, it's very difficult for us. It does a huge toll on our mental health. And you've mentioned a couple of times now, a sports club here, a rugby club. What sort of positives do we get? I mean, I know individually from brilliant friendships and leaning on people when times are particularly tough.

But is there anything specific In your line of work that you look at and think sports clubs are so important, not just for the physical health, but for everyone's mental health as well. Yeah. I mean, the physical health aspect is huge. And I actually recommend physical exercise to almost all of my patients.

There are studies which show that exercises. in many cases as effective as taking something like an antidepressant. So this is the actual getting out and moving your body, which is, I think just the basic requirement of your brain functioning well is you should be moving [00:08:00] your body. But I think something like a sports club like this is amazing for many reasons.

One thing I didn't touch on is one problem with modern societies. We don't, have enough ways for men to learn how to be aggressive in a civilized way. Women, one of the problems women have is they're more likely to be people pleasing. So they're more likely to put their needs aside in service of someone else.

And that can be bad. And a lot of my practice is actually helping women be a little bit more assertive. On average, men tend to have the problem of having a lot of aggression that they don't know what to do with. And that can be a dangerous thing. Like if we look in history. Cultures which had a lot of men with a lot of time on their hands and nothing to do That was a very destabilizing thing because men tend to be a lot more aggressive So something like a sports environment is a way of channeling that aggression into something healthy I mean, especially a sport like rugby or [00:09:00] American football It's hard to watch that and not think it's a simulation of combat or of war, you know Two sides pitted against each other in a strategic way And I think that's a very healthy thing because That's how men are.

We are an aggressive, I mean, human beings in general are aggressive and we don't we just think we're not because the temperature, we're at the correct temperature and we all have enough food and everything's safe. But as we learned during COVID, as soon as like something destabilizes, human beings in general can be quite aggressive, but men are the more aggressive half of that.

So having an outlet where men can learn to use that aggression To form close bonds with people, to become mentally and physically stronger, to learn how to work together as a team, I think is a huge asset. I know a number of guys around the room during COVID found it particularly difficult the isolation of COVID, but also the lack of sport, lack of exercise lack of social structure that we had.

And a number of you Constantly messaging when [00:10:00] we were coming out of lockdowns. When are we back training? When are we getting together again to play rugby? I don't know if anyone wants to comment or share their experience or of lockdown but I know it was a particularly tough time for some of you were in contact and again, maybe one of the positives of being in such a club we do share problems and lots of you are very open to that, which is great.

But I don't know if any of you want to share your experiences of lockdown or I think one thing that happened was kind of, carries on the conversation, the combat side of it. In lockdown, obviously, in a rugby sense, we couldn't get on the pitch. So one of the things that I was associated with at the time was that we made a competition amongst clubs anyway on a fitness side.

So we got strada and that kind of thing, and we made it points for running or cycling, that kind of thing, which actually helps. I think a lot of people, because it, A, got people in contact even if it wasn't face to face, but also brought in some physical work as well along the way, and also added in [00:11:00] competition.

So, just to echo exactly what you said before, it was a key part of lockdown for a lot of people that I knew at the time. Yeah, absolutely. If you want to motivate men to do something, make it a competition. Yeah, that was the whole point, and it, yeah, it did get pretty competitive, because every week you had to put all your schoolers in, and every week, And you reference men again there are men naturally then more competitive than women Okay, so let's let's break this down a bit And I highly recommend everyone learn about like the science of personality because it's out there We've studied people and when huge numbers across different cultures So if you want to learn about personality look up something called the big five theory of personality and you'll learn all about how humans Work there are gender differences I would want to emphasize these are group differences, average differences.

So it means, you know, there are many exceptions, but on average men are more aggressive than women. So that's a trait called [00:12:00] agreeableness. Women tend to be higher in agreeableness, which means they're more likely to be people pleasing. Men tend to be more disagreeable, which means. They're more motivated by competition.

They find it easier to either defend themselves or their tribe, like people close to them when things are difficult, more easy to channel that aggression for men. Fantastic. Oh, sorry. Is that a question? Yeah. Just on the back of the conversation about COVID every week I get kind of text messages from the rugby club saying, you know, come to training, come for a match and it forces me out of the house.

I know if I don't turn up on Saturday, I'm going to get an angry message from Andy saying, why aren't you available? During COVID I lived by myself. And so I spent the majority of COVID at home on my own. And when I lost that kind of structure of, you know, someone saying, come down to the rugby club.

Come for a runaround, come for a match. I just stopped doing any kind of exercise. And I suppose the question is, [00:13:00] you listen to lots of advice about mental health and things like that, and the advice is always, you know, stay active, eat healthy, go out, have a run, you know, do some exercise. But I think one of the challenges I would have if someone wasn't nagging me and saying, get down to the rugby club, would be I'd find it very difficult to get out and start doing those things.

Do you have any advice for, I suppose, You know, the advice is always go out and do some exercise if you're feeling a bit low, but that is much easier said than done. Do you have any advice for people who are kind of going, Oh, actually, you know, I should go out and go for a run because I know it made me feel better.

But that in itself is really hard. Do you have any advice for? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is where we get into the more self development side of things and the art of motivating yourself. And if there's one thing I would strongly recommend, It's you learn how to self motivate. It's really great when you have a community and that can help you.

But there are many things that the community can't help you with necessarily like community can't [00:14:00] help you if on something where you're more isolated, let's say starting your own business or you need to get into a training regime for personal reasons. I think if there's something you're stuck with is you want to create a clear vision of what you want.

So if it's running, a clear vision of what running will accomplish for you. So that's the nice vision which will motivate you. And then you want to make it as easy as possible. So many people overshoot when they set a goal. So they say, okay, I'm going to start running. I'm going to run for an hour a day, four times a week.

And then as soon as they fail at hitting that like lofty target, then they're like, I'm not going to bother doing it. If it's a new habit that you're not sure you're going to be able to motivate yourself to do, make it ridiculously, make the first step ridiculously easy. And that might be, oh, I'm going to run for five minutes.

So that lowers the activation energy needed to do it. And obviously a five minute run isn't going to accomplish very much, but that's not the point. The point is to start. And once you start, then you get all the good [00:15:00] brain chemicals going like your dopamine and things like that. And all of a sudden a five minute run becomes a 15 minute run.

But the advice I give is when you're starting, set a ridiculously small goal and let yourself feel successful even when you achieve that small goal and then just build it up from there. And whenever you're trying to bring something new into your life, whether it's like exercise or again, Starting a business or trying to improve socially, small consistent steps will win every time.

Like big steps that will last a week or two before you fall off. Like let's say you go on a crash diet and then failed by the second week. That's never gonna I'll do small steps that you can do over weeks, months, because ultimately changing your life meaningfully is going to take weeks and months.

It's never something you're going to be able to do very rapidly. So. Big vision, clear idea of what you want from the activity. And then tiny steps which are built up [00:16:00] consistently. Okay, thanks for that question, Alex. There's a statistic that I put on the up on the board here that 60 men are lost to suicide globally every hour.

It's quite a tricky statistic to get your head around. 60 men taking their own lives every hour globally. Why is that figure so high? What is it about men taking their own lives? Again, compared to women, but also what are the key elements of male suicide? When we talk about like something like a male mental health crisis or a mental health crisis in general, or things like depression or suicide, one of the things that bothers me is we can over medicalise it and treat it like it's an epidemic.

Like we talked about COVID 19, like COVID 19 is an illness. Depression is an illness, and of course depression is something you can see in the clinic and diagnose and treat. But I think when we [00:17:00] talk about it in these terms, again, we're seeing it almost like it's a disease, as if the way someone has a happy, fulfilling life is a mystery, as if we have no idea what makes up a life that's worth living.

And that's total BS. We know, we have an understanding of what helps people. most people, the vast majority of people, what helps them be mentally healthy and have a life that they feel, you know, productive and that they want to engage in. I think sometimes we almost avoid talking about it in these terms because we don't want to have the uncomfortable conversations, talking about things that we've already mentioned, like having work that's actually fulfilling, feeling like you can date and attract people into your life having high quality friendships, things like that.

So. Just like having a good quality life is not a mystery, you know, if you're physically healthy, if you have work you enjoy, if you can create wealth, if you can [00:18:00] have good relationships, that's clearly the path to a good life. It's also not a mystery why the opposite is happening in a lot of cases. Men are very isolated.

Men often feel like they can't access work, where they feel autonomous and in control, and like they're having an impact. Men feel very isolated romantically and again, problems attracting women in many cases. Declining social skills that, whereas, sorry to cut in where has that come from the issue with building relationships because I know you referenced internet dating and apps, et cetera, towards the start.

At what point did it become more difficult to getting to more meaningful relationships? Are we talking 50 years? Are we talking 20 years? And what are the key sort of reasons behind that? Yeah. I don't know if I'm an expert on that, if I can pinpoint the exact dates, but I would say clearly it's been a gradual progression.

And sometimes things [00:19:00] happen very gradually in history and then they happen all at once. I think probably the introduction and rapid growth of social media and dating apps combined with a culture where again, Men are very much encouraged to disown their aggression, to leave it behind. And are not encouraged to be, for example, assertive with women in a respectful way.

There's no conversation that we're having in our culture of like, as a man, How do you assert yourself romantically with a woman while being respectful? We're just not having that conversation. The conversation we're having is about, It's about the small minority of like psychopathic men, like a Harvey Weinstein type who is doing a lot of damage to women.

And I don't want to dismiss that because these people do a lot of damage. But by just focusing on that, we're not having the [00:20:00] broader conversation that we need to have about how men and women should engage each other in a romantic level, form good quality relationships, have families, have children.

And as I said before, we're seeing the results of this, like birth rates are declining relationship, marriage and relationship rates are declining, like it's actually having an effect. So I think it's extremely important. So largely, I think it's the technologies. I don't think it's a conspiracy. I don't think this is really what anyone wants, but it's the unintended consequence of bringing in these very powerful technologies combined, I think, with a cultural shift.

And again, a lack of. A lack of thinking in mainstream consciousness about how the hell men are supposed to be aggressive in a way that's healthy. And when we define aggression, we're not talking about a sort of will to want to fight necessarily as such. Could you define aggression for us? Thank you for asking that actually.[00:21:00] 

When I'm using aggression in this context, I'm using a very broad definition of aggression, which both men and women need, by the way. But I mean, the ability to feel what you want and go after it in life. Whether that's like wealth, or relationships, or friendships, whatever. And the ability to defend against what you don't want.

If someone is impinging on you in some way, someone is being aggressive against you in some way that's unjust, the ability to defend against that. Now that could be obviously in the most serious situation, a physical confrontation, but it could also be your boss trampling all over you and getting to do things you don't want to do, and your ability with words to defend against that.

I actually see both a lot of men and women in my clinic who have problems actually using their aggression. It's, again, it's partly a societal problem because we live in a society, especially British culture, which is very conflict avoidant, where as much as we're very polite, we're very [00:22:00] polite.

Yeah. Politeness is good. I'm a fan of politeness. Don't get me wrong, but it has to be balanced out with the ability to identify what you want. to go after it within reason while respecting others and the ability to say no when no is appropriate. A lot of people do lack these skills. So in, in a relationship if you're being asked something that you don't want, or if it's your boss, the ability to push back with a justifiable reason.

I mean, let's talk about it in the context of a relationship. So how many of you guys are in long term relationships? In long term relationships, what you're going to find is the more you avoid having a fight or a conflict, the more you're just delaying having that fight in two weeks or six months or in five years time, the more it's delayed, the worse that conflict is going to be.

So in relationships, it's very important to, [00:23:00] as soon as something annoys you. you know, within reason or annoys your partner for both of you to feel able to bring it up. Because if you don't have that argument about who does the dishes or who takes the dog out for the walk or who takes out the garbage or how we organize these things, you can have it now and it's going to be like a four on 10 argument or you can have us in six months time and it's going to be a nightmare.

So F so facing conflicts very proactively is very important. How many of you guys would say you've delayed? an argument and then the argument has come back ten times worse like a few months later. Normally to do with going along to a rugby social on a Saturday. You want to get that in early, I think.

Yeah, and it's something women need to feel able to do as well. I think that's important, but for both people. Yeah, maybe share the diary at the start of the season. With the other half. Okay. One, one more question from me, then we'll open it up and I'll come back with a few follow up maybe.

But if you [00:24:00] were ba based on your experience and the people you worked with, if you were putting a toolkit kit together for young men or older men that, that are in the room if you were to think of three key elements to lead a happy life. And a well meaning life, meaningful life what three key elements should we be focusing on?

Okay. So there's definitely way more than three, but I want to pick three. So one make yourself physically and mentally strong. So sports, doing things like this, lifting weights, running, make yourself mentally strong so face mental challenges like this. Find problems that are on the edge of your comfort zone and try and solve them and get good at solving problems.

So make yourself mentally and physically strong. Make friends with failure, judgment, and the rejection of others. We labor a lot under these problems. People are afraid [00:25:00] of being rejected. They're afraid of judgment. They're afraid of failure. especially to the young men, make friends with these things as fast as possible.

Become used to failing and it not being a big deal. Become used to someone rejecting you and it's not a big deal. Become used to someone judging you and it's not a big deal. And you're going to be like the top 1 percent of men everywhere. And the last thing is high quality relationships.

So if you're single, become good at dating and forming relationships. If you're in a relationship, it's make that relationship as good as possible. And that is by like having a high degree of emotional intimacy where you can actually be vulnerable with your partner and your partner can be vulnerable with you and you can take care of each other.

And then aside from romantic relationships, of course, friendships and family deepen those relationships. Make sure you can rely on each other in those relationships because those are the support systems that we need so that we can go out and face challenges And face [00:26:00] difficulty and do those things which are ultimately extremely rewarding.

So those would be a few I'd pick. Okay, excellent. Well, I'll do a few follow up questions towards the end. But I have pre prepared people if they'd like to ask any questions, either about what's been said already or something that you'd like to ask, that you've come prepared with. So I will just open it up to the floor now.

Yeah, you talked a lot about self motivation there. Back to what Alex asked before, and, you know, the three key areas of units are there. Obviously, we are here as a rugby club. How can we potentially support one another? What key items could you potentially point to towards that where we can support our own team out in our own community?

I mean, there's lots you could do to help with motivation. I even having some sort of regular space. Where guys can come to discuss different things they want to pursue. So that would be called like a mastermind group. So say, okay guys, this week we're going to have a mastermind group [00:27:00] for business. So anyone that's interested in starting their own business can come and talk about that.

Like having a, in the self development world, one of the things they say you should do is get a mentor. But then the other one they say is you should get a community of people trying to accomplish the same thing. Although I think self motivation is essential, it is difficult. Having a group around you helps a lot.

So even just having regular spaces where it's like, okay, we're going to be talking about these challenges, or relationships, or talking about alcohol. or talking about how we can get physically or mentally stronger. I think that could be hugely motivating. Making competitions again can help a lot with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that idea of as a community, almost subgroups that other people are interested in to come together. I think that's a really lovely idea which we can pursue. Yeah. Other questions, George. Yeah, it's not really a question, but just some, an important point to make, obviously.

Talked a lot about the importance of a rugby club and I didn't grow [00:28:00] up in this area and I've been lucky enough to move around quite a bit and been involved in lots of different rugby clubs, playing myself, coaching and now obviously involved in another club with my son playing. And I always say to people that move around, a rugby club's a place that they can walk into, meet like minded people, create strong bonds.

And they have a real positive impact on their lifestyle. I think what's concerning is what we're looking at now is a lot of sports clubs. That's declining numbers, and we're riding a bit of a crest of a wave at the moment, and we're managing to get a good number of teams out on a Saturday, but we look around us and some clubs are struggling.

So that's obviously a real concern for male mental health, and maybe male, men aren't accessing those opportunities as much as they could. I mean, Andy and I have been, well, We've known each other for what, 16 years now through teaching. We've been involved in rugby clubs, two different rugby clubs, for well over 10 years.

And one of the main things we talk about is culture, [00:29:00] and getting that culture right, and being part of a club that people want to be a part of. So I think that's really important. And then the second point I wanted to make, going back to COVID, using a bit of a personal experience of mine, A rugby club and sport has always been a bit of a release to me.

And when that was taken away from me behind closed doors, I became someone that really wasn't me. And all these things that you highlighted about a relationship all kind of came to a head. Obviously ended up separating with my wife, which I can talk openly about, and it was the right decision.

But I think, talk about bottling everything up and not having that release that was a real issue for me during COVID. I didn't have any release. I didn't have anywhere to go. I felt very isolated. So, yeah, Roboclubs have always been quite a real positive place for me. Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, the first point you made about declining numbers.

I wonder if there's something that clubs can do to try and find the men that are locked away in their bedrooms on their computers [00:30:00] all the time. Cause there's a lot of them, I think. And a lot of them lack social skills. So they feel very shy and they just can't get themselves to come to a group like this, which I think would be the thing that they need.

So if there's some way clubs can let, can find a way to target those individuals and make it as frictionless as possible for them to attend, like open days or something where it's like some way of decreasing the social tension of it or the social anxiety, which I know a lot of men are feeling at the moment.

I think perhaps that's a strategy that people could start to use, but I'm happy to hear that your numbers are doing well. What causes that social anxiety amongst men now? You've you've highlighted that lots of men are locked away in their bedrooms playing computer games. Again what are the causes of that?

What, why are people out socializing less? Well, well, the main reason probably is because there are technologies which have allowed them to, but this is how anxiety develops. So not just social anxiety, [00:31:00] but any anxiety. And this is really important to understand. Anxiety develops when you don't face the thing that you're anxious about.

That's how people become anxious. So the technical psychiatric term for this is agoraphobia, fear of going out of the house. In the old days. Agoraphobia used to primarily affect middle aged women because middle aged women would just stay in the house more, taking care of the kids, doing things like that, and their worlds would begin to shrink.

And now we're seeing this happening across the board, and that's why it's so frightening. So you go, you don't go outside for three days. then the prospect of going out on the fourth day feels a little bit more anxiety provoking than it might normally. Then you don't do that, then three days becomes a week, then a week becomes three months, and you get the picture.

Whenever you're anxious about something, and this doesn't, not just socializing, you have to break that fear down into like small steps and face the fear one step at a time. So [00:32:00] if someone was agoraphobic, I'd tell them go to your front door and just hang out there for five minutes until the anxiety drops.

And then go to the bus stop down the road and hang out there till your anxiety drops. And it's a stepwise thing. So anxiety is treated in a stepwise fashion, but it also comes about in a stepwise fashion, very gradually. People's worlds shrink until all of a sudden their whole lives are lived in their bedroom and the prospect of Going to a club like this is very frightening, funnily enough, because it's the exact thing they would need.

So any way of making that less frightening and decreasing the anxiety, making it frictionless or, you know, less friction would be very helpful. So those small steps, a little bit like Alex was asking about, that motivation to get off his sofa and go for a run, the small steps. Small steps. It's almost, so is the thing that's stopping Alex going for a run, is that anxiety, or is that just not picking on you Alex.

What is it stopping Alex? What is stopping Alex going for a run? Is it fear of [00:33:00] Is it fear of going for a run? Or is it laziness? What's stopping him going for a run? Well, I'd have to speak to him for an hour. I'd have to figure it out. But like, so everyone's an individual and they'll have their reasons that are specific to them.

But then there are just a lot of things which are very common. And one of them is simply the sluggishness that develops when a particular skill dries up for you, when you're just not in the habit of doing this. We are habit forming creatures. When we do things regularly, if you've gone to the gym every day for six months, going to the gym on month seven is very easy.

And if you haven't, the opposite is also true. So, so there's definitely that component. I think when people are thinking of something trying, thinking of trying something new, fear is a big one. And often that fear comes about from a, not being comfortable with the idea of failure. And that's why I said earlier, become friends with failure as fast as possible.

And then B, they set their sights too high. So [00:34:00] someone wants to learn how to play the piano and they're looking to play Beethoven by day three. It's like, you're not going to play Beethoven by day three. You need to set your sights very, like have a big long term vision. Like what do I want to accomplish in a year?

That can be really good. But in terms of what you do on any given day, a tiny step away from what you did yesterday. So if I didn't play the piano at all yesterday, I'm going to touch the keys today. Tomorrow I'm going to look at a YouTube video. Maybe the day after that I'll sign up for a course and it's these small progressive steps, which really work.

Okay, fantastic There's a few hands up. Yeah, so Jack My mum passed away four years ago and she had cancer It's quite quick from when she got diagnosed when she passed I think it was like four weeks from when she got diagnosed when she passed away and A couple of my friends that I know, not through necessarily the rugby club, but have spoken to [00:35:00] therapists and have had them hour long sessions with people like yourself.

And I think the real issue for me was the stigma around potentially going to speak to someone and that fear of like, oh, are you actually doing that? Why do you need to do it? I think potentially maybe from my dad and my experience with him and his just disregard for it and that it wouldn't help.

I think. What would reduce my anxiety in terms of Cohen speak to someone like you is actually knowing what goes on in those sessions and okay and how they work because I think just the not the idea of not knowing generally is quite exact gives me anxiety when I don't know what's going to happen so there might be people in here that potentially have thought about it or potentially wanted to go down that route for a problem that they might have but just never really had any context or any idea about what goes on in them sessions and I know for me personally it would Probably encourage me more to go and speak to someone having a bit of a better idea of actually what goes on Yeah, that's a really good question.

Thank you for [00:36:00] asking it actually the first thing to say is obviously if you anyone wanted to see a therapist look for someone who has an accreditation So big the big two in the UK are the BACP and the UK UK CP And then there are some which are called like psychoanalysts associations, but make sure you've You're seeing someone who's done some training, because in the UK, psychotherapy is still an unregulated profession which means any of you could call yourself a psychotherapist tomorrow and start practicing, which is a huge problem and hopefully that's a problem that's going to be addressed soon, but find someone accredited and assuming you do know that's when you're going in, you're going to be speaking to someone who's done a lot of training.

So it's someone who knows, you know, I think a lot of people labor on the, under the idea that their problems are like can't be handled by anyone else, that they're somehow like totally unique and no one's had a problem quite like mine before. [00:37:00] And that's kind of true because people have these very individual lives and we have very specific things that happen to us, but there are very similar things that happen to large groups of people and therapists have gone through a training program to learn how to handle those problems.

In terms of what happens in a session, usually you're just asked to talk about yourself in a way that's unfiltered, uncensored, as truthful as and as authentic as possible. And then usually the work progresses from there. That's not a simple task, and many people actually find that quite frightening.

I found it difficult when I started my own personal therapy before I started training. But that's roughly the size of it. You're asked to speak about your experience and you could ask the question quite rightly like how would that help exactly? Funnily enough, most of us don't have a space where we can talk in a totally unfiltered way.

When we're talking to our partners, our bosses, our [00:38:00] colleagues, our friends, One huge issue is we normally have to hide at least a part of ourselves because there's a part of ourselves that's just not appropriate for that relationship. I think we can all relate to that to some degree. One of the really cool things about psychotherapy is that you're really encouraged to just speak your mind and that helps you to discover things about yourself which you weren't previously aware of.

Do you guys ever notice sometimes when you're having a really good conversation things are coming out of your mouth? which you didn't even realize you thought or felt. Psychotherapy tries to create that environment where you're just, you're in real time figuring out new things about yourself. And then that opens up new possibilities for how you could live your life.

So you might be talking about an argument with your partner, say, and be like, I thought I was just angry and I was angry, but actually I was also kind of afraid of fill in the blank. And then knowing, okay, now actually there was some fear underneath [00:39:00] that anger. Now I have new possibilities. I can talk to my partner about that fear.

We can understand each other a bit better and maybe we can avoid some arguments. So that's like a typical example. So really it's about talking about yourself in a way that it's as truthful to you as possible. And then the work progresses from there. Sometimes it's more practical and structured. So there's a specific kind of therapy called cognitive behavior therapy, which people will even draw diagrams about.

How your thoughts relate to your emotions and different behaviors you can try. And it's at homework, so if you love like practicality and structure and you're looking for therapy, I would advise something like Cognitive Behavior Therapy. But in general, therapy is a free space to just express yourself, to learn new stuff about yourself, and then open up new choices that you can make in different areas of your life.

Thanks for the question, Jack. And I've interviewed Alex before, and I spoke about grief and I lost my dad about 18 [00:40:00] months just over 18 months ago. And one thing that Alex said when I first interviewed him, which has actually, it was a small snippet, but it's really stuck with me is that grief generally lasts around last 18 months, but the core grief phase is 18 months.

And then it's the recovery from that. Is that correct? Have I? You want to be careful because you don't want to create this sort of bracket of like, this is normal, anything outside of this is normal. Grief lots of times lasts longer than 18 months, but 18 months is really typical. And I think it's important to know that because, Especially men where we tend to have a drive to like just be, get back on it and be productive and be fun, very, be very functional.

Sometimes if we're in month six or seven or eight and we feel like we're not quite back to ourselves yet, we can feel like maybe there's something wrong with me or something wrong with how I'm processing this grief and that's not [00:41:00] necessarily the case. So yeah, 18 months is typical, but I would say.

If you have grief that's even lasting longer than 18 months, it doesn't mean something's wrong with you. It might mean you need talking to someone might help. Yeah. But grief is a long process. It's a really big deal. And I don't even think we treat grief as the big deal that it is enough in, in, in modern society.

Well, when I first mentioned it to you when I was interviewing you, you mentioned you don't necessarily need a psychiatrist necessarily. It might be a more of a grief therapist, A specific grief grief therapist. Is that? Like with any kind of mental health difficulty, there's levels.

So I think the first port of call is actually always your community, like the people around you, your friends, your relationship, your family. But then if things feel a bit more intense or if you're getting the feedback from the people around you that maybe some additional help is needed, then perhaps in the case of grief, something like a grief counselor [00:42:00] or there are actual groups.

Which are a bit less intense where people talk about their grief. And then if things get still a bit more intense, talking to your GP could be helpful. And the GP is always a link to mental health services involving psychiatry and things like that. But that's why I think taking it more preventatively, proactively is so important.

That when times are good, that's when, that's the time to be getting good relationships in your life. So that's when bad times have happened. And as we all know, bad times will happen. Unfortunately, we have that support network to rely on, and hopefully we won't need to go to those higher levels of intensity.

Yeah just second in that. So my dad passed away like, 11 years ago sometime now. And I remember on that day I was actually meant to be going to play football down at Whiteleaf and stuff. And Jack was one of the boys And it was alright, it was five hours after I found out and whatnot and stuff, so.[00:43:00] 

And they invited me down, and they said, no, we're gonna all go anyway. And I think since then, I had this, like, bubble around me of all these people. And it actually helped me throughout the whole time. This massive bubble, and during college, and any situation. I had this group of people around me, which was the best thing ever.

And I think I always say to anyone, like, just try and keep that friendships around you and they're the best people to go for. They might not know anything what to say or whatever, but that friendship is good. And then I had a big thing. I went to the gym all the time and that's why I decided that's what was my therapy is that and I went with it.

But yeah, definitely second in these sort of the friendships and community vibe. And that's the only sort of the reason why I think I really got through. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing that Jammeh. Just, I've had a few friends who have struggled with their mental health, and sometimes what they've done is they've completely withdrawn themselves, or [00:44:00] they've kind of changed their um, personality.

What can I do as one of their friends to help them? Or when they're going through these changes where they're, Decide to control themself or change their personality. What can I do as a friend to help them through that process? That's a good question. I think there's a part of this, which is difficult actually, which is understanding that any one individual is their responsible for how their life goes ultimately.

And that can be a difficult, a bitter pill to swallow. But that being said, there's a lot a person can do to help, obviously, I think. The best thing a friend can do in those situations is to clearly signal I'm going to be there for you unconditionally, so I'm available. I'm maybe being proactive and saying I'm available here, or maybe calling them up regularly and saying, without like direction, saying [00:45:00] you should do this or you should do that.

But actually I'm here to do kind of something similar to what you would do in therapy, which is just let you talk about whatever you want. Be as honest. Let's have an as honest a conversation as possible. I want to see who you are as a, as authentically as you are. And then maybe adding this specifically for men, let's go do something together because that's really, I think, and I think this is a little bit of a contrast with women.

And of course, women do enjoy. I shared activities as well. I think men really bond over something that they share together, particularly like some sort of challenge that they're overcoming together. But again, underlying that like unconditionality, like it's okay, whatever you think, whatever, like political opinion you're holding at the moment, whatever subreddit you're browsing on at the moment, I'm here, like I'm available and you know, I want to support you.

So I think something like that. Great. [00:46:00] Thanks for the question, Ollie. Oh, Ben, go on. I think I speak on behalf of a lot of people here. In terms of like sport activity, staying fit and healthy, personally, myself, I'm very motivated to train. I think I diet pretty well, work and everything like that. But I think the biggest struggle for myself, I think I'm speaking on behalf of people here, is I'm in a relationship myself, and also friendships.

Sometimes I'm not happy with a certain way that I'm doing. In a relationship, you're not happy with certain ways they react or to certain issues. Friendships are a big one as well. I'm in quite a few big friendship groups and obviously when you're in big friendship groups or a long term relationship, you identify several different issues.

And I think I'm very motivated to turn up to training, to diet well, to meal prep, to cook. All those sort of things are very easy for myself, but I struggle very much in speaking out. Whereas after a long day at work, if I'm not happy with my mate saying something in a group chat, or if I'm not happy with the way my partner's reacted to something, I will just brush it straight under the [00:47:00] carpet.

I'll just go to sleep, or cook, or go to the gym, or I'll go to training, brush it under the carpet, and then wake up the next day, go to work and do it all over again. What would you say to someone like myself or other people going through the same thing? That's a great question. So to clarify, would you say you're someone who avoids conflict and confrontation?

Okay. So this is a super common problem. You must understand that, as I said before conflict avoided is conflict delayed almost all the time and it's going to be worse. In terms of your, how you think about it, taking care of your relationships, friendships and your relationship in that way has to be the same way you brush your teeth, look after your physical body, clean your car.

It has to take the same priority. The thing that kills relationship, like romantic relationships and friendships is resentment. Like, that thing annoyed me, that thing annoyed me, that thing annoyed me. [00:48:00] You don't speak out, you don't speak out, you don't speak out. Resentment builds up all the time. Much in the same way as if you don't look at your attic for two years and then you go in your attic and it's an absolute nightmare.

If you don't look at a relationship in this way for a couple of years you're going to find unless you're very lucky, that is going to be an absolute nightmare. So it has to become like, you have to be, it has to become a proactive thing. You do like, I'm going to take care of my relationships. If something annoys me, it's actually important.

Maybe not immediately, but if the same thing annoys me two or three times, probably important to speak out about it and just treat it as something that does require energy. So like almost schedule it. If you know, like, okay. Okay, Monday is a terrible day. I've got lots of things on but Tuesday is a bit light.

This thing's been on my mind I need to talk to my partner about schedule it even you know for yourself mentally Treat it as important as any more concrete thing in your life. I think [00:49:00] because relationships are Abstract they're not a thing we can touch or feel it's easy to neglect them as you mentioned, but understand They're going to be our support network where times are tough.

I don't know. There's this show on, on the BBC iPlayer called Couples Therapy. Has anyone watched the show? Yeah, I'm not super surprised, but watch the show called Couples Therapy on BBC iPlayer and it's actual couples who are going through therapy and it's incredible. And what you're going to see in that show is that You're going to have couples who have been together 5 years, 10 years, and the reason they're in therapy is because that resentment has built up, man, so it's never cleared out proactively and you're seeing the wreckage that causes.

Going back to your question, how do I start? You're going to start the same way you start anything else. So however, what I would normally do, increase by 1%. So if I would normally not my, you know, my friend does something three times, which annoys me. Say my friend [00:50:00] is late three times to the gym. It's kind of annoying.

If normally I would not bring it up. What's 1 percent more than that? Okay. I'm going to bring it up like gently. I'm going to be like, would you mind like showing up on time? Something that small step, see how people react. Funnily enough, when people start to change themselves, people can react quite badly.

Initially if they're used to the guy that's laid back who like is chill and doesn't have a cause conflict, they might say, okay, who's this new person? Who was all of a sudden so argumentative be prepared for that and be like, this is important. Like, the ability to have conflict, whether you're a man or a woman, the ability to have healthy conflict is like an essential life skill, so just cultivate it slowly and proactively like that.

Thanks for the question, Ben. I've got a couple of other questions that have been sent in from guys that can't be here tonight. One of which just wanted to re emphasize a lot of what we talked about, that the rugby club got him through a difficult period. He referenced a period in his life where he lost [00:51:00] his job and he turned to alcohol and he went through a period of addiction.

And That made it particularly difficult for him because coming to the rugby club, there's a natural element to go to the bar, share a beer with someone. And he felt quite isolated because he lost his job that was isolating in itself. And then his support network will, Would be go to the pub and have a pint, but he was going through a stage of his life where he was alcohol dependent, so I think his question was about addiction as a whole especially alcohol And the best ways to try and manage that.

So addiction is one of those things where you know if you're worried Someone you know has an actual dependency on something like really their use of alcohol or a substance or many substances is getting out of hand. That's probably the [00:52:00] time where you want to think about professional help. And in that instance, again, maybe encouraging the person to see their GP as the first port of call as the access point for getting more professional help is a good idea.

I think the thing with addiction is, and I worked in an addiction clinic for a year. It's really, it's not the, it's usually not the substance it's their relationship to that substance. So it's not like the alcohol or the cocaine or the Netflix or the pornography. It's like, what is my relationship to that thing?

You know, one person can have a beer on a Friday after a long week and it's amazing and it makes them feel good and helps them socialize and it's, it stops there. And that's good. You have a good relationship with alcohol in that case. If the substance or the habit is a crutch you lean on because you have huge amounts of negative feelings in your life and a real lack of positive feelings.

That's going to make you really vulnerable to addiction. So the question [00:53:00] a person should either ask themselves or their friend that they're concerned about is like, what is their relationship to the substance or to the habit? Is it a, you know, once in a while or in moderation, a celebration? Is it a fun part of my life or is it a part of my life where actually my life is filled with a lot of pain and I need this to take away the pain of it?

Super common. And if that's the case, that's when sort of thinking about it in terms of an addiction and getting. Some professional help is a good idea and figuring out, you know, besides the substance or the habit, what's going on underneath, like what are the things that person lacks in their life or what are the more destructive elements in their life that are putting them in that position where the addiction can even come about.

Okay, great. And the other question that was sent in was linked to some of what you've said about you referenced about having a meaningful job a number of times or finding meaning within the work you do. I'm very [00:54:00] lucky as a teacher. It's very tangible. I get a lot of reward for my job, but a lot of people have gone into careers that they're not interested in.

To be honest they found themselves in careers that it's just turned out that way. They're not getting a lot of meaning from their job. What advice would you give? Cause it's not easy just to then leave that job and just find a completely new job. What advice would you give for someone who feels they're stuck in a career that isn't particularly meaningful?

Yeah. I mean, again, that's a very individual thing and the devil is in the details. But speaking broadly, just like taking care of your physical body is a basic need, you know, taking care of confrontation in your relationships is a basic need. I think having something meaningful in your life where you feel either fascinated or fully engaged doing it is a basic human need.

I don't think that necessarily needs to be your job or the [00:55:00] way you make a living. Although if it is take note of how fortunate you are, because people don't have the luxury of making a living doing something they really love. So at a minimum, some carving out some space in your life and figuring out what do I really love doing and how much, you know, spending some time doing that.

But I think it's very possible in terms of career as well. It's way more possible. than it ever has been at any other point in human history. Like if you were born in the middle ages and you were a peasant in the middle ages, you are a peasant in the middle ages. Like you're not starting an online business.

Like you just stuck nowadays. Although in many ways there are a lot of challenges as we discussed, there's actually a lot of possibility for mobility, particularly because of the internet. So if you're in a career which you don't particularly like or don't get a lot of meaning from, and you think maybe you're in a position to change, Start changing slowly.

Carve out some time in your personal time for research, [00:56:00] experimentation, trying new things out, maybe get a side job, maybe start a small business on the side, maybe talk to the people you do work with, you do work with at your actual job, and how can I carve out some space, maybe an hour a week just to start doing this thing I really like.

And that's how I started the podcast. It is through just brutally carving out time for my evenings and weekends, and then it gradually becoming more of a part of my life, and then getting to do speaking events like this. It was a very slow process. So I think one mistake people make when they want to, like, change their lives is they want to do it very quickly, and I would say finding something meaningful that you like to do is very important.

So treat it importantly, and we do important things slowly. Over, like, give yourself months and years to slowly bring the thing you love, well first to figure out what it is and then to bring it into your life gradually. Thank you. I'm going to just open it [00:57:00] up if there's any more follow up questions and then I've got one question to finish with.

Yeah, you mentioned earlier about stress and anxiety being kind of a small step kind of, process of actually happening. So have you got any tips for identifying when you're in that kind of rut? I think for myself I'm kind of currently unemployed and although it was kind of planned. I can kind of see that maybe in like, if I wasn't employed in three months, that might be an issue.

So how do I notice, or how can I tell if I'm starting to go down that route and are there any like, tips and tricks you can kind of offer to start identifying when stress and anxiety start happening? Because I, for me particularly, it's quite difficult to notice that, and I've noticed in the past suddenly.

I realize I'm stressed and then at that point I can deal with it, but I don't notice it building up. So you're asking how do I start to identify when I'm becoming more stressed and anxious? Yeah. So I know the situation I'm in. I [00:58:00] know I plan for this and it's fine. It's fine at the moment, but I could see if it, if I would say unemployed still at the other side of Christmas, it starts to get a bit stressful.

How would I? Notice without knowing. Yeah. How would I notice, is there any tips you can give for noticing that's starting to be affect me and the people around me? Yeah, so I would probably say start to develop. I think many people don't have any mechanisms in their life for have developing self-awareness, and there's many ways you can develop self-awareness.

One is having. unfiltered conversations with your friends as much as possible. So that thing that maybe you're on the edge of saying, you're not sure if you can say, maybe say it, try saying it and expressing yourself as clearly as possible. Again, this is a situation where therapy could be useful if you're that way inclined.

Keeping a journal, we actually write down your thoughts regularly, either in the morning when you wake up or last thing at night, writing a journal at night is actually amazing for [00:59:00] staving off anxiety. Okay. Cause I don't know how many of you guys have trouble sleeping, but often when we're awake in waking life during the day, we can kind of stuff down all the things we're worrying about until 3am where they wake us up in the middle of the night either with a dream or a lot of worried thoughts.

So there's this technique you can use called the brain dump, which is literally you get a piece of paper and a pen and you just write whatever's on your mind stream of consciousness for like five minutes. And that helps to. get out all of the things that are burdening you. A meditation practice.

So literally sitting with your own thoughts and having those kinds of reflections. So all those things, just having a, just the way you have a check engine light that will sort of come on when there's a problem, you need to develop a series, at least one practice where you kind of get a view into yourself and start to watch yourself, like watch yourself when you're interacting with people.

Okay. Oh, I noticed today I'm a little bit more irritable. I'm snapping more than I normally [01:00:00] do. Stress and anxiety are things your body will tell you about. If you're starting to feel it, you can feel that tension, sweating. You find that your heart is beating faster. Your body is giving you signs all of the time as to how you're feeling.

As long as you pay attention and look regularly through one of these practices, you're going to start to get to know yourself. pretty quickly and even asking your friends for all your partner for feedback. Like, how do you think I am at the moment? They'll tell you really quickly. So, yeah, lots of things you can do that.

Any more questions from the floor? Oh, sorry, take off. How do you think COVID affected the younger generations? Like I was 14, I think, when they first came, but people were like 18, 19, 20 going off to uni. starting to build new friendships, all of that kind of stuff. How would you say it affected their mental health?

Badly. Yeah. I think similarly to what we discussed before, especially for 18, 19, 20 year [01:01:00] olds, that's the time in your life where you're forming your identity and you're making an identity that's different from your parents or your family or siblings. So it's this crucial time where you're You know, people were unable to have that really important experience of experimenting with new friends, experimenting with their interests, experimenting with romantic partners, experimenting with learning new ideas at university.

Obviously they, you have that experience to some degree online, but it's very diluted. So the things I worry about the most are decline in social skills for both making friends and romantic relationships, decline in physical health. The decline in the ability to actually even tolerate ideas you don't, you disagree with.

So like one of the original functions of a university, so everyone can come together and argue about history or philosophy or science or whatever and nowadays it feels like people are very, even sensitive to disagreement and we [01:02:00] can't challenge each other just talking about ideas. So all of those things which are really important for making a healthy adult I think they missed out on.

And linked to that, like, going into university, like, a few of my mates have started on the gap year, but, I think some of them have gone in with like a closed mind, and I think they're kind of struggling, so, would you say you have to properly go in open mindedly, or how would you tackle kind of that new stage in life?

So one problem is, like, how open minded the person is, And just like I talked about aggression earlier with men and women, how open minded someone is also a personality trait which varies. Some people are naturally more open minded than others. But to the extent that's possible, that is the time in your life to have an open mind.

Because that's when you can discover all of this new stuff about yourself, about the world, about ideas, about how you can make a living, about friends. As much as possible, absolutely, you want to savor [01:03:00] all of those experiences because, you know, they're so profound, even, you know, your university experience when you're 20, even decades later, you can look back and see what an important moment that is in terms of forming the overall direction of your life.

And it's so easy to become more closed minded as you get older. So I tend to recommend people stay as open minded as possible throughout life because being open minded and having new experiences is part of what keeps you young. I believe, but especially that time of life, you want to be as open minded as possible.

Anything else from anyone? Okay. Just a couple. Well, one question from me. We, I know you're not a rugby specialist, but we are doing, I don't know if you saw from the website or our results, we are doing particularly well as a rugby club at the minute. We are unbeaten as a rugby club this season. Awesome.

Should we be going in super confident now with every game because we, cause we're winning. Or should [01:04:00] we be cautiously optimistic? Or what level of confidence slash arrogance should we have as a club at the minute, do you think? I really love this question. Because it's a, there is like a success trap people fall into.

And here's the trap. You become successful, you fall in love with yourself or your ego instead of the work that got you to the point where you're successful. So an example would be like Bill Gates founds Microsoft, and I don't know if this is true of Bill Gates, I'm just speculating, but Bill Gates founds Microsoft, he does really well, he doesn't think, Oh, all the hard work that I did to put into the company, that's what made me successful.

No, he thinks, I'm Bill Gates, and that's why this became successful, because I'm somehow special, and therefore I'm entitled to success, and I think that's a huge mistake that people make when they gain a bit of success, they say. I'm the shit. It's because of me. It's because of us. It's because of Trinity.

We're [01:05:00] just successful people. And then you know us too well. And then you forget about the drills, the practice, the dedicated training, all the important strategic conversations. So it's important not to let success blind you. Did you guys watch the Napoleon movie that came out last year at the Scott movie?

That's what happened to Napoleon. So he became really successful and then he thought, because I'm Napoleon, anything I do will work. As opposed to, I was making really good strategic decisions before. And that's how, that was ultimately the seeds of his downfall. So in your guy's situation. Enjoy the success, like acknowledge it, celebrate it, but never think the success is because it's us.

It's because of the work and remain focused on the work that got you to that successful point. And then you won't get like deluded by success, which is something that happens a lot. Great stuff. Well, I'd like to thank you. I know it was a [01:06:00] bit of a journey for you to get across London today in this awful weather.

So I'd like to give you a huge thank you and a round of applause.

Thank you, Alex. Thank you very much.