Professor Sir Simon Baron Cohen is a Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry, and Director of the Autism Centre at Cambridge University. He is the author of 600 scientific articles and 4 books, including Zero Degrees of Empathy and the Pattern Seekers. He created the first UK clinic for adults suspected to have Asperger's syndrome that has helped over 1000 patients have their disability recognised. He was chair of the Nice guideline development group for Adults with Autism and was chair of the psychology section of the British Academy.
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Professor Sir Simon Baron Cohen is a Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry, and Director of the Autism Centre at Cambridge University. He is the author of 600 scientific articles and 4 books, including Zero Degrees of Empathy and the Pattern Seekers. He created the first UK clinic for adults suspected to have Asperger's syndrome that has helped over 1000 patients have their disability recognised. He was chair of the Nice guideline development group for Adults with Autism and was chair of the psychology section of the British Academy.
Interviewed by Dr. Rebecca Wilkinson - Give feedback here - thinkingmindpodcast@gmail.com - Follow us here: Twitter @thinkingmindpod Instagram @thinkingmindpodcast
Join Our Mailing List! - https://thinkingmindpod.aidaform.com/mailinglistsignup
SUPPORT: buymeacoffee.com/thinkingmind
Hello and welcome back to the Thinking Line podcast. Today I have with me Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen, who is a professor of psychology and psychiatry and director of the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge University. He is the author of 600 scientific articles and four books, including Zero Degrees of Empathy and The Pattern Seekers, which we'll discuss today. He created the first UK clinic for adults with suspected Asperger's syndrome that has helped over a thousand patients to have their disability recognised. He was chair of the Nice Guideline Development Group for autism for adults and was chaired the psychology section at the British Academy, and in 2021, he received a knighthood in the New Year's Honours list for services to autism. 8s Today I have with me Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen, who I'm incredibly excited to talk to you today because in the three years of having a podcast, we haven't yet had a podcast talking about autism spectrum disorder, um, which is incredibly important to me, but also, I think to everyone, um, today I'm hoping we can talk about autism, what it is, what causes it. Um, and talk about magnificent work you've done over the past 30 years. Um, I'm also hoping to talk about your book, um, that you recently released called The Pattern Seekers. Um, which I've really, really enjoyed reading from an informative point of view. Um, but there are also some important themes that I'd like to talk to you about with you, in terms of how we can think about changes we can make to our modern society. Um, to allow people with autism, um, to flourish. I think one of that was a really important message I got from the book. Um, and I hope that I can talk to you about that a bit later. Um, but I think it's probably a good place to start for our listeners to ask you in your own words, if you can describe for us what is autism or autism spectrum disorder or neurodiversity, because we have a lot of names for it now. And, um, what do we understand at the moment causes autism. Yeah. Okay. First of all, Rebecca, thank you for inviting me to talk to you today. So I'm looking forward to our conversation. And we may as well sort of dive straight in because you've you've already used the term autism spectrum disorder. 1s Although although that's how it's known internationally, particularly in the, in the US, in here in the UK, you know, there's we don't tend to use the term disorder. So that already kind of addresses one of the key questions about what is autism. Is it a disorder. Yeah. That's one of the questions I wanted to ask you a bit. So let's hold on to that. Or you can you can talk about it now if you'd like. 1s Yeah, well, that we may as well have, um. Let's see where this leads. But what I was going to say was, you know, that I think of autism as a disability and a difference. 1s Um. Um, so the disability side is, is in terms of social skills and communication, but also in terms of, you know, adjusting to unexpected change. Just people prefer predictability and get quite stressed if things are unexpected. So on that side of things, you know, autistic people are looking for support for their disability. But autism isn't just a disability. It's also a difference in the sense that autistic people think differently. They process information differently. They see the world differently. Some of those differences, um, are nothing to do with disability that you do with strengths or even talent. So that's why I sort of I don't personally use the word disorder unless unless I'm talking about one of the co-occurring conditions. That's maybe a really important point, that autism is often accompanied by co-occurring conditions. Some of them are sort of medical, like epilepsy or gastrointestinal pain. Some of them were some of them are to do with mental health, like depression or anxiety. Some of them are sort of other disabilities like ADHD or dyslexia. But it could be that the word disorder is relevant to one of those co-occurring condition. The only thing that's causing the person to to suffer or is causing distress. We might think of in terms of the disorder. But disability itself, I think is is more about, you know, what can we be doing to provide reasonable adjustments to make life more for the person? And difference is all about acceptance and inclusion. Uh, you used the word neurodiversity. That I see that as part of difference. 1s You know, um, this concept of neurodiversity. That brains come in different varieties, you know, and different kinds of brains are not better or worse. They're just different. If we make space for difference, actually, then, you know, if autism is one of those examples of neurodiversity, if we make space for that difference, then autistic people will flourish. 1s Absolutely. And in your book, you give examples of people with autistic traits, historic people with autistic traits, I think. Is that fair to say? Because obviously you can't diagnose someone without wanting them and talking to them. But people such as Albert Einstein and you talk about Elon Musk as well, who has identified himself, I understand, as autistic, um, who have who have gone on to invent wonderful things. And our society wouldn't be what it is, um, today without their their ability to do that. Which I suppose brings us on to your book. Really, um, which describes the human capability that you describe in your book to systemize. Yeah. Well, the book sort of addresses the question about whether there's a link between autism and, uh, I think very human capacity for invention. 1s Um, and the way I sort of think about invention is that when you, um. When you're inventing something, uh, effectively, it's a tool of some kind. 1s Um, and tools can be simple or they can be complex, but tools are basically systems. 1s And in order to sort of come up with a new system, you first of all have to be able to understand the system that's in front of you. And then and then you can start experimenting or playing with the system to see if you can change it, hopefully, hopefully improve it or come up to come up with something new. 1s And you mentioned, you know, historically. Now, when we look back at people who've been really good at trying to understand the system in the world. 1s Silent and mostly just talked about. But in my book I focus on Edison. Thomas Edison, who is known to, you know, known for his invention of of the first electric light bulb. But actually, he invented unstoppably. He was, you know, so it's what I call generative invention. 1s That what seems to characterize humans, modern Homo sapiens, for the last hundred thousand years, is that just invent worlds we were constantly inventing. And some people are sort of. I'm stronger at this. 1s And bringing this back to autism and people who've got a lot of autistic traits. 2s It, uh. The book explores how this psychological process called systematizing and understanding systems and then sort of, um, playing with systems. So you to really explore how the system works. That seems to be something. It's this kind of pattern recognition still seems to be something that autistic people just naturally gravitate towards. Even when you see autistic kids very young, they're often experimenting. They're taking things apart, putting things back together again, but really trying to understand, you know, how does the system work? Why? Why it was the way they are so there, you know, and I've seen this has nothing to do with disability. This is to do with, you know, you could say originality. 1s And that, you know, they're they're thinking afresh, not just. Doing what they've been told. 1s Following fashion. They're often thinking afresh and trying to understand things from first principles. So there's a real opportunity. I think that if we make an if we make the conditions right for autistic and autistic people more generally. That they could be achieving much more. 1s But maybe this kind of leads us to. 1s The kind of reality of where we are today, which is that a lot of autistic kids have a miserable time at school. 1s And, you know, they feel that they don't fit in. They're not being made to feel comfortable. And it's kind of turned off education. 1s And we, you know, the kind of the way that plays out is with autistic people dropping out of school at high numbers, ending up unemployed and feeling very negative in terms of their self-esteem or self-confidence. 1s Hey, there's something wrong here. Isn't unique. When you when you look at these two different views of autism, on the one hand, they're potential. 1s And, you know, their natural aptitude. 1s Then on the other hand, how they've ended up in society. 1s Somehow we're finding autistic people. 1s Absolutely. I think I think it's a really important point. And I was smiling because at the beginning when you were explaining, you know, how some autistic people or most autistic people really focus in on certain mechanisms. I can think of many young people that I've seen with that, with that capability. But unfortunately, because I work in the mental health service, I've seen them struggling with their mental health because of all the other, um, struggles that they have, because they've dropped out of school, they've become socially isolated and socializing becomes even harder. And you mentioned unemployment as well. Um, and I mean, is a real problem. I think I read recently that, um, suicide, attempted suicide. Correct me if I'm wrong, attempted suicide in autistic adults is 1 in 4. Is that a correct statistic that you're aware? Um, yeah. I think, um, to be precise, I think, uh, 1 in 4 autistic people will plan or attempt suicide. You know, those statistics are alarming. And so we, you know, we've, um, pivoted a lot of our research here and to, to think about what can we be doing towards suicide prevention for autistic people. And so it's not just tackling. The mental health part, which is a big part of it. But it's also about sort of where are the barriers for autistic people in education, in the workplace, in feeling included? 1s As you know, you've put your finger on it. You know, if you're feeling isolated and I'm feeling like you don't fit in. You know, it's going to be a downward spiral in terms of mental health. Yeah, absolutely. And in the book you do discuss towards the end some of the ways in which we can think about improving the lifestyle of autistic young people in schools such as, um, allowing them to, to study their, their focus subject and not forcing them to study things that they're not interested in. Because we know that autistic people struggle with doing things with demands that are placed upon them, um, especially if they're not interested in them. Um, what are the ways in which, um, can modern society adapt or change to enable autistic people to flourish? Yeah. Well, let's since you've mentioned school, let's just start on that first. Um, and because, you know, um, when stream school and particularly the national curriculum in this country, but the, the equivalent in other countries, you know, it carries with it a certain expectation that you learn in a particular way. So you'll remember from your end days at school that you're expected to kind of jump from one subject to the next, you know? Um, and by the time you're a teenager, you're expected to be juggling in 8 or 9 different subjects. You know, switching topics every 30 minutes or however long the lesson is. 1s And autistic people, you know that their minds work differently. They often have a preference for depth over the breadth. 2s So once they kind of latch on to a topic, they like to go quite deeply into it. And it's actually part of the diagnosis, although I don't think it's a symptom. I think it's a quality that is actually a positive thing, a different not a disorder. Yes, exactly. But it's, you know, that psychiatrists might refer to it as an obsession when the person is obsessed with a particular topic. Whereas, you know, you could just call it, um, you know, expertise that they want to become an expert in it. And I want to get as much information on that one topic as they can. 1s Mhm. And you know they, they set themselves quite high levels of, you know perfectionism that the details matter. You know for an autistic person they're not trying to just kind of understand something in a shallow or in a vague way. They want to understand it in a precise way. And then, you know, with all of its complexity and that, that that learning style just may not be suited to the typical classroom where you're you're meant to drop one subject and hop over to another subject after 30 minutes just because the bell rings. Yeah. 1s So we need to be thinking about, you know, um, the way we deliver teaching and education to autistic kids is, is it really doing is it is it really doing them, uh, any service or is it actually disabling them in it? And the second thing, of course, is that the way it traditionally schools have been set up is you learn from a teacher. And and it's, it's it's all about communication and it's about sort of looking at the teacher's face, listening to their, their spoken language. So it's very much a kind of social activity. And you look in a large group of other kids, which where there might be lots of background noise and kind of giggling and chatting and stuff, these are these are the sorts of things that autistic people find really difficult. Not just because they might have sensory hypersensitivity. But also, you know, the social world is precisely the area that they struggle with now because it's changing so fast, and it's up to kind of get a foothold in terms of predictability in this world. And they, you know, they might flourish much better when they can learn in a through different formats, in they might prefer to learn in a quiet environment. 1s Mm. Well, with fewer people kind of interacting. 1s It's just 1s that they might prefer to learn through the internet or through books, but where they do a lot of fact checking because autistic people sort of get the facts clear and present and established. 1s That's about kind of interpretation and opinion and more about what are the facts. 1s And that learning style could really you could imagine it could really lend itself to certain subjects that are factual, like the sciences or history. And. 1s Mathematics, etc., not just as subjects. You know, many subjects could kind of benefit from taking this very factual, systematic approach. 1s Um, but, you know, we've got to see we've got to somehow accommodate that. Autistic people have, have this different learning style, otherwise feel like they're completely lost and turned away from education, which is what we see in very large numbers. Yeah. And you mentioned, um, someone in your book as well, who was struggling to get a job. And I actually gave a talk to my fellow colleagues today on the application process for higher training. And one of the parts of the talk was that talking about the interview. And I was thinking to myself, because I knew we were speaking this afternoon, um, I mentioned, you know, talking about how to give eye contact over Microsoft Teams. And interviews are all about making eye contact, trying to work out what the interview wants you to say, and responding to their social cues and their body language. And it's no wonder we think that unemployment rates are higher in those with autism because interviews are structured. I mean, they're difficult the best of times for neurotypical people who are under stress and anxiety, but someone that's neurodiverse, that struggles with all these social cues. I mean, it's it's really upsetting to think that we I know in your book you describe some specific, um, environments and companies that do cater to people with autism, but generally my knowledge is that we don't at all. Yeah. The first of all, just before we come on to your important point. Just to kind of worried about language cause because you use the phrase people with autism but actually are talking to the autism community. There seems to be a preference for saying autistic people rather than people with autism. It's an interesting shift because you say people with something. It sounds like maybe the old view of someone has a medical condition. You know, they're living with the condition. Whereas I think this kind of change in language. Flex more. The autism is now seen as part of the person's identity. So rather than saying, you know, um, I don't know a person with black skin, we would say a black person because it's part out of their identity. 1s So, um, you know, that's just kind of a small point about language, but actually, 1s you know, it also reflects a bigger shift that's happened in recognizing that, you know, we need to sort of think about what is the what is the experience like for autistic people? It's, you know, when it's it's affecting. You know who they are as as a as a whole person. 1s When you know the banks you're kind of point about. Sort of interviews and, you know, job selection. You're right that at the point of, you know, selection, that may be where they are experiencing a barrier to employment. And if we're expecting people to to show social skills in interviews, that's actually going to discriminate. Discriminating against people with ability in social skills seems almost like an. 1s It's, you know, it's not a level playing field when autistic people apply to to jobs. And it's a bit the equivalent would be asking someone who's in a wheelchair as part of the job selection to walk up the stairs. 1s Uh, you know, it's that would be seen as discrimination on the basis of a physical disability. And yet that's exactly what we're doing when we're saying there's the candidate making eye contact. And, you know, so, you know, this is challenging our fundamental assumptions about how we recruit people into jobs. 1s As we do that, we're not going to shift the statistic, which is that 85% of autistic adults are unemployed and 85%, you know. 2s Yeah. You know, that's got to be connected to the other statistic you mentioned earlier of one in 1 in 4 are feeling suicidal or, you know, planning suicide, you know, unemployed. You're going to feel undervalued. You're going to be isolated or more isolated, but I. 1s And 1s maybe I'm not going to have autonomy because you don't have a wage. So you might you might end up kind of not living independently. 2s Even. Even if you're capable of it, you know. So employment is another big area, but I don't think the interview process is the only barrier to employ. 2s Um. You know, that's certainly one of them. 1s Um. But I think I think there might be other factors that either might be discouraging autistic people from applying, you know, do they feel that they're going to be welcome? 1s How do they feel intimidated or overwhelmed by? 1s The nature of the workplace. But are they going to be met with an. 1s But in an attitude of respect and recorded the same dignity that everyone else would expect. 1s Or are they going to experience more of that same stigma that they experienced from their school? Mhm. Yeah. It's it's interesting because I think if you compare where we are at right now with 40 years ago, and I'm sure you can give a better perspective of this, and I have given your work over the past 30 years about our understanding of autism that that has it has come far. But like you said, there are still, you know, um, there's still stigma. Um, and there are still massive barriers in our modern society. One thing I did want to ask you, because I think this must be the most popular question I get asked when I tell people that I work in a in a national specialist, um, autism team, is why the rates of autism increasing. It's probably, I imagine, a question you get asked frequently. Um, and I know you touched on it in the book, but I would like to hear, um, your your answer today, please. Sure. And so just, you know, for our listeners, you know, autism is now diagnosed in 1 in 36 children. That's American data. But the rates seem to be pretty similar in other countries, including here in the U.K.. And that's a massive increase compared to if we went back 20 or 30 years ago when we thought autism was quite rare, like a thousand or, you know, even less than that, and you're asking what's caused the increase? Well, you know. A lot of it will just be to do with better recognition and greater awareness. 1s So, you know, awareness has kind of been driven up, which is a really good thing just by. Um, more clinics being 1s out there and people being trained about autism and, um, you know, lots of stories in the media about autism, sometimes misinformation, but, you know, more, more, more. But there are more books, more movies, more documentaries. There's, you know, radio programs, podcasts, you know. So I think it's really good that awareness is growing. And that's leading people to to wonder, am I autistic? Should I seek a diagnosis or as my child or may, you know, some other relative autistic? 1s I think, um, part of it is just that part of it, I think, is also we've changed the definition of autism over the years. So in the sort of mid 90s. We introduced this other category called Asperger syndrome. We think what I mean is the field, uh, in the field of psychiatry. 1s Introduced Asperger's syndrome, which rarely referred to autism without learning disability. 1s And because before that, the majority of people who were receiving a diagnosis of autism also had learning disability. I think it was something like three quarters of autistic people in the early liberties. 1s Uh, would have been, um, you know, would have had a learning disability as well as being autistic today. Today it's the absolute opposite. Majority people do not have a learning disability. Kind of broadened our definition, and I think that's probably a good thing to. 1s The result is, as you know, better than anyone. Long waiting lists to get a diagnosis. 1s That's another kind of crisis that the, you know, the the services, the National Health Service, fish Special cannot. We need to address the long waiting list because. It's great that we've got better awareness, but if it takes more than a year to get seen for a diagnosis, which is very common. 1s And, you know, during that time people are sitting and waiting and maybe getting depressed, maybe feeling suicidal. So, you know, it's unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. My father question because we have touched on, um, autism being a difference and also can lead to a disorder with associated anxiety disorders and increased rates of depression. Should. Should everyone who has autistic traits be seeking a diagnosis? Or should we only be seeking diagnoses? Or should people only been seeking diagnoses if they have traits, as well as a negative impact on their day to day life? 1s Yeah, I think, um, I think the latter, although people have different views on this. So, um, so we all have autistic traits. That's the first thing to say. So, so about 20 years ago we developed a, a measure of autistic traits called the IQ. 1s Stands for the autism spectrum quotient, and it's quite widely used, but it's just a questionnaire and it counts how many autistic traits you have. And it turns out when you give this questionnaire out to people in the general population, everyone has autistic traits. And it's just it's just a matter of degree. Was it? You know, that was an interesting surprise. Prior to that, we used to think about autism as a binary thing. You're either autistic or you're not autistic. So that shift towards the spectrum, not just within those who have a diagnosis, but a spectrum right across the population. 1s It of autistic traits, 1s I think just kind of acknowledges that, uh, autism isn't something mysterious. It's just people have more autistic traits than other people. But your question was, if you've got a high number of autistic traits, do you need a diagnosis? And I think I think the answer is no, because it's only if autistic traits are causing you to struggle in some way. You know, um. So, you know, the. Yeah, it's it's about whether you're coping or. Functioning in your everyday life. 1s If you've got a lot of autistic traits, but you're actually comfortable and, um, doing what you want to be doing. 1s Uh, you know, if you feel your quality of life is good, but I don't think you need to be pursuing a diagnosis. 1s And I think also I think if, um. 1s And if you find yourself in an environment where actually your autistic traits are valued. 1s All right. Again, you know you don't need a diagnosis. It may even be that because there's a good fence between you and your environment. 1s But there's no real disability that is, um, evident. 1s Then it may only be that, you know, with that level of autistic traits, if you suddenly moved into a different environment. We might certainly struggle. And so that's more about sort of. Not just looking at the end of the job, but looking at their surrounding, how they're being received, how they're being supported, how they're being celebrated. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned some of your research and I did want to talk to you before we finish about some of the important findings that you've made over the past 2030 years. I don't know if I'm getting the numbers right. Um, and one of the interesting studies, um, you've done with over two, you you came to the IPN as an expert. Actually, it was on team. So you didn't come a few years ago. And I remember for a journal club as an expert. Um, and one of the studies you presented, which you talk about in your book, um, was looking at, um, people's ability to systemize, um, compared to their ability to empathize. Um, and I think the findings are really interesting and important. Are you able to summarize that study for our listeners? 1s Uh, yeah. So, um, we've done a number of studies in that area. Um, but this is really looking at the psychology of autism. 1s Um, and also the psychology of all of us. So we've talked a little bit about systematizing, but systematizing is the ability or the interest to analyze how systems work and, um, to predict how they'll work as well. Um, 1s uh, systematizing also involves kind of, uh, building new systems. 1s And we could just think of this in quite practical way. You know, it could be sort of how you organize things in your life. That's it might be more or less systematically how you file things, how you put your possessions away, whether it's kind of chaotic or in a kind of systematic way. So systematizing is kind of part of everything we do. But autistic people often, um, have a strong interest in the system. It might not always be apparent if you kind of just looked at, you know, how they're living. So they're living in a very messy kind of home life. But largely what they're doing is being really focused on 1 or 2 particular systems. Connecting information very systematically. 1s Or trying to really understand the particular computer game in huge detail. Now, you know, so that's about systematizing. Empathy is a word that, you know, is closer to the English language. And, you know, empathy is about being able to recognize what someone else is thinking or feeling. But so respond to what someone is thinking or feeling with an appropriate emotion. 1s Um, autistic people might struggle with the first part of that. That's sometimes called cognitive empathy. 1s That they may not be able to read other people as easily as other as others reading their facial expression or decoding tone of voice, for example. Um. So doesn't mean that they lack empathy, because often they're absolutely fine at the second part of empathy, which is when someone tells them what they're thinking or feeling, they do have the appropriate emotional response. So if they hear that somebody else is in pain, for example. And or salad. They want to know how they can help. They have that have the same emotional response that anyone else does. 3s But, you know, the study that we conducted was, first of all, to look at different levels of empathy and systematizing in the population. 1s Uh, we actually tested this using some online measures. So we were able to get big data. Something like 600,000 people took part. And 1s those were people who weren't autistic. And what we found was that there were gender differences. So on average, women scored higher than men on empathy measures, and on average, men scored higher than women on systematizing measures. We also had 36,000 autistic people took part. So the time we published it in 2018, I think it was one of the largest studies of, of of autism. And with the autistic people, as we predicted from smaller scale studies, um, they they scored lower on the empathy measure, but they actually scored higher on the system raising measures. And so these are kind of just studies that help us to. I suppose, in a way, to see the neurodiversity that all these different profiles and psychological profiles in the general population, and there's just one of many profiles that exist. And somehow just tying this back to our earlier conversation, somehow we've got to make sure that different areas of society make space for those different profiles, whether we're talking about the classroom at school. 1s Or the workplace or colleges and universities and, well, just kind of more widely in society, like the health service, you know, are we really sort of making sure that all of these different places in the world are equally accessible to people with these different profiles? Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned there were sex differences seen in the research. And I know that you've done a lot of research looking into the sex differences and the effects of hormones. Um, are you able to summarize some of that research very quickly for our listeners today? Yes, of course. Keeping it brief. You know, when you find differences between people with different genders, that could all be the result of our experience and of culture. But what we've been interested in is to find out if some of those sex differences also reflect prenatal biology, and particularly prenatal sex steroid hormones like testosterone and estrogen, which are known to change brain development. 1s We've been studying that and and across several studies, we found that autistic people have higher levels of prenatal sex steroids. Um, so this these are kind of hormonal changes that are probably interacting with the genetic predisposition because we know some is partly genetic. 1s And and you know, in, in in combination genes and hormones are changing brain development. 1s Um, we also have looked to see whether these hormonal variations are relevant to the general population. Say when we see differences in empathy or systematizing. We've been labeled in some studies to show that they referred above the role of postnatal experience. Prenatal sex steroid hormones are also associated with how you perform later in both of those areas. Mhm. 1s That's that's really interesting. And I. I can appreciate. Actually, I won't I won't go into the controversy around people that have commented on that, actually. Uh, I'll cover that. Well, I think I think the area of, of, of gender differences and sex differences is inevitably going to attract controversy. Uh, maybe for good reason. Mhm. Uh, because we know that, you know, historically, uh, women have experienced discrimination in lots of parts of society. 1s And any kind of science that might be looking at whether these these differences between genders are partly biological, is is going into territory that is likely to be controversial. But as scientists, you know, we have to also. Separate what we want in terms of political aspirations, which is always about equality. 1s I'm understanding what's, for example, causing more boys than girls to get diagnosed with autism or language delay. 1s Or ADHD or a whole range of of of disabilities. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really important to separate the the politics from the science, I suppose, because we can look at them in different lenses. Um, and then for what they are separately. Um, yeah. So I think it's important that scientists are actually very explicit about their values. 1s Right. You know, and that's, you know, that that helps to frame the science that you do or 2 or 2 helps to help to rest and sort of explain why you're doing the research that you are doing, you know. So in the case of us looking at hormones example, we're not doing that work. Um. 1s To justify historic sexism. 1s Which would be appalling. We're not doing that work to develop a prenatal test for autism, which I think would be equally appalling because of the risk of that leading to eugenics. 1s But we can. So we can state our values about, um, valuing diversity first or whether it's, uh, neurodiversity or any other kind. Uh, at the same time pursuing some of these quite challenging scientific question. Yeah. And you mentioned we're not we're not doing this, um, to enable testing for autism, which I think is important. Um, if we bring it back to the book, um, you discuss how the ability to systemize has been critical for the evolution of humans, and without it, well, no other species has had this ability. And that's why we are we have become what we are. I'm conscious of time, but are you able to quickly, briefly explain that to us and then people can read the rest of the book to understand? Yeah, sure. I mean, the book. 2s You know, introduces evidence from archaeology. So, you know, if if people are interested in, you know, the evolution of invention, the capacity for invention, it takes us all the way back to our hominid ancestors who were using simple stone tools like rocks, hammers or axes to cut into scrape. But it also kind of explores what happened in the last 70, 200,000 years. Where we suddenly see the rate of invention taking off. Where we're no longer seeing the production of simple tools, but we're seeing the invention of complex tools, like the first musical instrument, where the first sculptures will cave paintings and so forth through to today, where our our world is absolutely full of inventions. And that seems to be what what makes humans unique amongst the animal kingdom that we invent unstoppably and linking this back to autism, you know, it takes us through the evidence that autistic people may be not only, um, sort of more interested to systematize, to, to invent. 1s Um, but also that there are all kinds of interesting links between autism and invention. Some of them, I'll just give you a flavor of two of these studies. So one of them was, uh, looking, um. 1s In places like Silicon Valley. 2s You know, um, we actually studied rates of autism in a Silicon Valley in the Netherlands. It's called Eindhoven because Silicon Valley and Eindhoven have been attracting people who have an aptitude for invention and for understanding systems. They might expect if autism is partly genetic, and if the genes for autism are linked to an aptitude for understanding systems and inventing that, we'd see higher rates of autism in places like Silicon Valley or in Devon. And that's exactly what we found. But we kind of followed that up to look at the molecular genetics. 2s And by working with a company called 23 and me. Which some of your listeners will have heard of at some personal genomics company. You know, you pay $100. You spit in a tube, you send off your saliva, and they they tell you what what your DNA, 1s you know, what genes you're carrying. 2s And what we what we were able to do working with that company is ask people who are clients of the company to take a systemized test online. 1s So that we could, first of all, look at the genetic, um, associations with an aptitude to systematize. 1s And then look to see whether there was any overlap with what's known. 1s About the genetic associations with autism. 1s And actually we found a significant overlap between the two. So, you know, this kind of again, the results of this for me were sort of really exciting because first of all, it was showing that when we look at the genetics of autism, we shouldn't be assuming that these are genes that cause disease or disorder, because some of those genes are associated with talent and pattern recognition and understanding system. 3s But it's also showing that since since the genome is is much older than just contemporary society, our genes have not changed that much. And you know that if we if we tried to understand. 1s How did we end up being a species that is so successful when it comes to invention? 1s That the evolution of invention is closely tied to the evolution of autism, even in our DNA. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to finish on one of the quotes from your book, which I think things are slightly back to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is actually a quote, um, that someone said to you. But I think it really resonates with, um, some of the things we've spoken about today. 1s Um, so you say, as one Danish autistic man told me, we are like freshwater fish in saltwater, put us in saltwater and we flail around, suffer struggle, and may even die, put us in freshwater and we flourish. Um. And I think we'll finish there. 1s Um, professor. Sir Simon Baron-Cohen, thank you so much for coming on. I've absolutely loved talking to you today. Thank you so much. Well, thanks very much, Rebecca. 3s Thanks so much for listening this week. If you've got any feedback, as always, do get in touch. If you enjoyed the episode, why not give us a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? Because it really helps other people to find us. If you want to get in touch, you can find us on Instagram or Twitter, or you can drop us an email. And if you value the show more generally, why not bias coffee? Thanks so much.